Ajay Balamurugadas

GSPANN Technologies

This episode was recorded LIVE at the EuroSTAR Conference in Stockholm.

Thank you to our Community Hosts for Season One, Russell Craxford from the UK Department of Work and Pensions, and Gek Yeo of AIPCA.

Together, they introduce this season of the EuroSTAR Community Podcast then Gek interviews Ajay Balamurugadas of GSPANN Technologies, India. Ajay was a speaker at EuroSTAR and you can see more about his talk on the 2024 Programme.

Episode 1 Transcript – Russell, Gek, Ajay Balamurugadas

Gek: Welcome to EuroSTAR podcast studio. I’m Gek, the lead manager of QA and Release with AICPA and CIMA.

Russell: I’m Russell Craxford, one of the Testing Peers, and a volunteer at EuroSTAR 2024 in Stockholm.

Gek: This is the first time me and you work together for the podcaster for EuroSTAR Conference. What makes you want to come since you are a regular here?

Russell: To me, the main joy is the networking, the people. I’m very people-oriented, so the ability to come, speak to testers, talk about problems that they might be facing, talk about shared issues, shared solutions, learning ideas, all that sort of is really my interest in it. How about you?

Gek: I really love the twist of doing a podcast together, so that is really fun. So what is the most interesting thing in this year’s podcast for you?

Russell: In the podcasting, we were asking people about the future of testing. And there’s quite a few themes that came up in it. The first one is the AI theme. AI is obviously here.

Gek: Yes.

Russell: It’s going to change some things. It’s changing some things already. But we still have to see where it will go on the journey. Like a lot of technologies, it promises a lot. It will achieve some of it but probably not all of it. It will change our roles, but how? Trains happened, then cars came along as an invention. We still have trains. We just don’t use them as much and things like that. It will be interesting to see how that changes. The other one is the people side of it. So a lot of people are talking about, well actually, communication. Communication drives collaboration, drives making sure we solve the right problem. It drives teamwork. It drives value and getting to value. So communication and teamwork is some of the things that people have talked passionately about and how they’ll evolve and how maybe tools, like they have in the past, will free us up to be better at communication, to shift testing left, to shift it right. To look into different ways and think of testing as more holistic quality than just a test or a check or something like that. Just a test case.

Gek: Yeah, I just love when they talk about when you put on your CV for tester, it’s not about the tools, it’s also about your skill set, critical thinking, and the eye for details. And one thing that I like about this year for the podcast is that we get people who have never done a podcast, do their first time podcast with us and they seem to be enjoying it and are quite happy with it.

Russell: So, it might be interesting to see what we can do with that and where we can take it because this has been interesting. I think, I don’t know if you know the exact numbers, but I think it’s 20 plus people we’ve spoken to and interviewed.

Gek: Yes, over the past few days our voices are almost gone now.

Russell: Yeah, but it is interesting what people have to say. I think next year’s theme, thinking ahead to 2025 in Edinburgh, about AI and what it means to us. It will be interesting, because I think that’s what we’ve heard a lot of. There’s a lot of people thinking about it. So, I think it will be interesting to see how that evolves that next year and how valuable and how interested people are in listening to short burst conversations from EuroSTAR.

Gek: Yeah, and maybe we can get some of the people to come and share with us their real-life stories with using AI in their testing.

Russell: Yeah, talk through some examples because technology is changing. Tools and what we think can happen won’t be the same in 12 months time. 12 months doesn’t sound long, but it is quite a lot in tech.

Gek: True, especially we are so fast-paced. anything else we want to give to our audience then before we close this?

Russell: I guess it’s something that we talk a lot about in some of the podcasts is feedback. So, if you’ve got feedback, if you’ve got ideas, if there’s things you’d like to hear more about, things that are of interest to you, we’d love to hear it and help us make this more valuable. Please do reach out. You can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us in other places. But do enjoy! Communities do help make you stronger. They do help you solve curiosity, they give you ideas, they generate, nurture.

Gek: It’s all about giving and also receiving back. You can be a mentor to somebody else or somebody else can be yours. You can find your mentor too. So I think that’s always, you know, time and privilege, you know, to have people here, yeah.

Russell: And you learn to do it across multiple countries, cultures, people, areas, domains. You can see that things that you might think are incredibly strange, complex, actually a lot of the patterns are very similar. There’s variations, but the fundamentals are quite common. Coming here can remind you of those fundamentals, remind you of the challenges you face. And I know that when I come back from EuroSTAR, I may have lost my voice, but usually I’ve come back with kind of ideas, positivity, creativity, desire, passion.

Gek: To share with your teammates who can’t be here, right?

Russell: Yeah, it’s a passion. And that passion is infectious and encourages cultures and companies where learning is important, prioritized, encouraged. So, find what works for you, what’s with your budget, what’s with your time commitments, lean into them.

I think we should wrap up. So do these things, get involved, come learn, come see. It’s about sharing ideas, concepts, getting the conversation going.

BREAK

Gek: Hello everyone, I’m very lucky to have Ajay join us

Ajay: Hello, hello everyone. Thank you, thank you Gek.

Gek: Would you like to quickly introduce yourself to our audience.

Ajay: So, I’m based out of Bangalore. My name is Ajay Balamurugadas and I’m the Senior QE Director at G-Spann Technologies, a services-based company. So, we provide end-to-end solutions right from application development to testing, quality engineering, DevOps and all of that. I co-founded Weekend Testing, a famous movement for skilled testers and I’m loving the energy and vibe at EuroSTAR 2024.

Gek: How long have you been involved in testing Ajay?

Ajay: For the last 18 years.

Gek: What does testing mean to you then?

Ajay: A very good profession where you get paid a lot for asking good questions. And most of us do test without knowing that we are testing but then if you take this up as a profession then if you have the right skills like questioning, critical thinking, observation, note-taking and have a good storytelling as a skill then you’ll definitely shine here.

Gek: What made you get into the testing in the beginning?

Ajay: So, I was hired as a subject matter expert to test software that was being used by the printing industry and within six months, I figured out that I don’t want to be labelled as someone who tests just the printing software. I wanted to be a tester who can test any software and be ready for that. I watched the video, Becoming a Software Testing Expert by James Bach, and I got inspired and I said, okay, let me dive deep into testing. I started following people like Michael Bolton, James Bach, Jerry Weinberg, Pradeep Soundararajan, who was the one who introduced me to these folks. So, I then started learning and spending a lot of time upskilling myself.

Gek: Mm, very encouraging story from Ajay. So, from that moment, you started to become a tester and a domain expert in everything. You try to be. You are not limited by software. Is there any tip you would like to give for someone who is new to testing or would like to get started in testing?

Ajay: So for the first two to three years, don’t worry about your salary. Just be in a right environment where you can learn a lot and then your job is not your career. So, do work on your skills outside of the office as well and be part of multiple communities. There’s a lot of good information already available. You can also look out for something called as Learn Software Testing in 20 days where I and Rahul Parwal have created a mind map and given all the resources so you can get started on that. Don’t hesitate, just keep trying. Either you will learn, or you will succeed. There’s nothing called as failure in learning.

Gek: So, what is the most interesting testing project you have ever done in your life? It’s like some, you know, remarkable, you know, ones that you always have a good story to tell?

Ajay: I’ll tell two very quickly and both of these are not success stories but rather they are failure stories. The first one was like I was the only tester and there were like five developers including a development lead and we were building a software for a physical printer. And we tested for close to eight months. I found more than 800 bugs and 600 of them were fixed. Everything was going good. Until the last minute they came and told me, there is a hardware change and because of that we’ll have to stop this project. And so, all the effort that went for eight months, it never saw the market.

And the second one was, again I was the solo tester, and the software was supposed to be behind a proxy. I worked with the IT team and they said yeah it is now behind proxy and I believed them and we tested everything for like three months and then we released to the customer and the first test they did within their proxy, the software failed because it was never tested behind a proxy. I trusted my IT folks blindly and that was a big lesson that you can take help from others but you should also know the technical stuff.

Gek: Yeah, I think that is a very good tip for our audience to learn and understand what is your domain and not to trust blindly and questions when necessary to understand.

Ajay: And on similar lines, I’ve written a book called 50 plus mistakes of my software testing career. So these were just two examples of those. There are more than 48 such examples that people can read, enjoy, maybe laugh and then think, oh, this I will definitely not repeat, right?

Gek: Learning history is good for us, isn’t it? We learn from history, we learn from that, we learn how to not to repeat it and how to have a greater rate of success.

Ajay: Right.

Gek: When we are in the leadership role for QA, we have to look after our team of testers when they have pressure, they need to test quickly, very quickly. How do you keep the morale of your team high and not get burnt out?

Ajay: Talk to the team most of the time. Figure out are they working extra hard? Are they working long hours or not? If they are working, figure out why. Is it a client demand or are they doing something wrong that is forcing them to spend extra hours? And then of course, check on them. Are they enjoying what they are doing or are they being pressurized? If there is a skill gap, then you can always train them. If there is an attitude issue, see what would help them come with a happy attitude, positive attitude towards work. And then if they are understaffed, like they need more people, then of course you need to help them. And try to be that person who unblocks your team the fastest. They need some licenses, they need some help with any of the approvals, trust your team and let them take the decisions.

If they do it well, you be the loudspeaker for them. If they make mistakes, you own it. You be in front of the client, own that mistake. And that way the team trusts you more and will bring the bad news early because no bad news gets better with time. So, the sooner we get to know about the bad news, it’s great.

So, trust the team, be with them, and then show them that you are also prone to failure so that they are not afraid to fail. Because experiment is what leads to experience. But if they are afraid to do an experiment, then they would never gain that experience. So, create that environment where they don’t hesitate to make or, you know, participate in different experiments. So be that leader who one leads from the front and also supports all the team members.

Gek:  I agree with you. To create a safe environment especially when testers just joined the company. If still on probation they get very nervous. Should I report it? Should I say it out loud?

Ajay: The other key thing is many of us need mentors, but unfortunately we don’t realize the importance of mentors till it’s very late in the career. Have a mentor in the same field. Have a mentor within the company. Have a mentor from a different field and also have a personal mentor who could be maybe taking care of or helping you with your health and things like that. Because mentors have already gone that path. They know what is important and what is natural so they can give you that perspective. So, without that perspective you will struggle. Feel free to take help of mentors. And I have also, I’m also helping multiple folks in their new job or change of job and things like that. So, it looks like it’s working for them.

Gek: Let’s talk about this EuroSTAR Conference 2024.

Ajay: So my talk is, in one line, Where are the real testers in the age of AI?

Gek: Yes.

Ajay: So it’s more like everyone is jumping to automation and then now the Gen AI trend and all of that. My key point is, if you have the right testing skills, you will know where to use automation and Gen AI in the right manner. And don’t use these just for generating test cases or executing the test cases. There are multiple opportunities. Think of the places. Think of all the activities that you do as a tester and then keep asking this question, hey, can I use automation or Gen AI or both here? So, that way, once you have the right skills like the questioning skills, the courage to say the truth, the note-taking skills, the having the bigger picture, general systems thinking All of those skills, pay more attention to that, then you will be able to use all or automation the right way, because these will just amplify whatever is already there. If you’re doing a good job, it will amplify it.

If you’re doing a bad job, it will amplify the bad thing, right? I want to call out for all those testers who spent time upskilling and focusing on the real testing skills to come back, be again loud, and share that message once more. Because this is the time we need that loud and clear because now people are mostly running behind tools and Gen AI without understanding the foundations and fundamentals.

Gek: I think it’s building about the trust in AI isn’t it? It’s like AI is like, you know, we treat it like as though as new tester colleague that come into the office.

Ajay: Yeah, so treat it as a tool and nothing more than that. Don’t blindly give away your power to it. Don’t blindly accept whatever it says. Don’t blindly reject it as well.

Gek: True.

Ajay: Use your skill. Use your judgment. And then evaluate that. See if it fits in your context or not. Like one of the speakers, Bryan, mentioned, understand more about data science, your data scientist should be your friend, learn about AI, and then you will be able to do a better job at using or rejecting AI.

Gek: Okay. And do you use any AI in your team then?

Ajay: We are trying out multiple models and then we have a few reasonable doubts. So, yes then we’ll soon be releasing the versions that our clients can use. So we are a services based company so, we do help our clients with these solutions.

Gek: Okay, so you will train those has testers in and also teach right how to use the tools because they need to understand, right, how to?

Ajay: Correct. It’s not just about the tools. It’s about the models that go behind them. Why we do what we do, rather than what it does? So we are also focusing on what is it, how is it working? So, we encourage our testers to take up the courses, workshops, certifications, participate in community events. Understand indepth the technology, and then get better at prompting, for example, and then take up, evaluate all these tools and see which one is good or bad.

Gek: What does testing look like to you in five years down the road?

Ajay: See when I started Selenium was like just starting out and people said oh Selenium will replace every tester, automation will replace every tester.

Gek: Yes, I remember those times.

Ajay: And then now it’s like the Gen-AI will replace every tester. So, this is like a cycle that’s going on. And unfortunately, or fortunately in our industry, there are a few people who are always starting out. There are a few people who are always super experienced. There are few people who are always confused between, hey, what do I do? Which type of school do I follow and all of it. So, I think nothing dramatically, nothing dramatic would happen in the next five years. We just continue this hype of AI will do everything. Maybe it’ll die down in one or two years, but then the good ones definitely will add value to multiple clients, people. So, the ones who pick it up will shine just like how they do with other tools. The ones who run behind, like they are behind in the race, then, they’ll be behind in the race and maybe they’ll go. Yeah, we’ll see where they go. So, it is a continuous journey. If you’re good at what you do, you will not be replaced. At the same time, don’t be on that thought forever. Continue to upskill every day. Right, so yeah.

Gek: You are a very experienced speaker for conference. How do you encourage the juniors to become the next generation of speakers for testing?

Ajay: Keep trying in meetups, local meetups, online conferences, the safe avenues. There are clubs that encourage speaking and give you feedback. Talk to your mentors. I can help people get better at speaking. I and Rahul Parwal have written a book on heuristics for effective presentations, so you can read that book, it’s 20-25 pages with all full of tips on what to do for the slides, what to do with your voice and things like that. There are multiple resources. All you need to do is step up, ask for help and follow up on the exercises that’s given by the people.

Gek: I think another thing is also finding interesting topics, right?

Ajay: Correct. For example, there is a tweet by Dickie Bush who says in 20 minutes he can help you generate 100 ideas.

So the thing is it starts with like in the last two years. Keep writing down everything that you have done. And once you have done all of that, then you will understand what are you good at, and then what you need to focus on. What you like, what you don’t like, what you enjoy and things like that. When you keep doing all of that, then you will of course get so many ideas and then you can think on actionable ways for those ideas. How do I convert them into actionable? How do I put out the factual information? So, he has like the 4A framework and things like that. So, if you search for and D-I-C-K-I-E-B-U-S-H and then 100 ideas in 20 minutes or something like that, then he has a good framework of coming up with multiple ideas.

Gek: Wow, that is very, very good. So now, our audience can, you know, whoever wish to be, aspire to be like a great speaker like Ajay and wants to find topic, you know, can follow his tips and read about it. And hopefully we can see more submissions and more new speakers coming on stage and talking about it. I think that is what makes us quite excited about testing community because whenever we see new people, new faces, you know, and we help them along because it’s all about teamwork, isn’t it? It’s community building, right? It’s global community building and things like that. And what do you like most about EuroSTAR 2024?

Ajay: Oh, I love the booths. I spent 90% of my time in the booths. I’m learning a lot by interacting with the vendors. I’m also giving them a few ideas and then they get impressed, and they give me lots of giveaways.

Gek: Swag, nice booty.

Ajay: I’m liking the entire vibe of EuroSTAR. Yesterday we went on a cruise.

Gek: Yeah, it sounds like cruise was great.

Ajay: Everything is good. The quality of talks, the breaks in between the talks, the Wi-Fi is great. For the first time in any conference, I’m experiencing great Wi-Fi. So, thank you for that. There’s a vegetarian food as well. So, thank you very much. And then of course the quality of the vendors. I believe that is also important which has been taken care of. So, there is everything. So overall, it’s a very good thing. I came here first in 2010. And now after 14 years I’m coming back to EuroSTAR and lot has changed. So,  it’s good. Yeah.

Gek: What would you like to see in next year EuroSTAR then?

Ajay: Next year at EuroSTAR maybe a track dedicated just for demos by testers and not by tool vendors, but by testers who have implemented these tools in their applications or projects and demos of that, the learnings of that. Maybe a track dedicated just for failures. Right. So I think these two tracks will be great addition.

Gek: Thank you so much. Is there any last thing you want to give to our audience before we close?

Ajay: I’m happy to connect. Testwithajay.com is my website. There are a few books there for free for download and my past videos are there. Feel free to connect. I’m happy to mentor folks who need help and yeah love to connect with new people and enjoy their journey as well.

Gek: Yeah, thank you so much Ajay, you have been like an inspiration to all of us and I really enjoyed talking to you in this podcast and hope that you all follow Ajay and keep up the up the good work in testing. Thank you.

Ajay: Thank you.

Notes

Russel Craxford’s LinkedIn

Gek Yeo’s LinkedIn

Ajay Balamurugadas LinkedIn

See our previous podcast A Different Me which focused on topics around diversity and inclusion.