Linda Van De Vooren

BartoszICT

This episode was recorded LIVE at the EuroSTAR Conference in Stockholm.

Thank you to our Community Hosts for Season One, Russell Craxford from the UK Department of Work and Pensions, and Gek Yeo of AIPCA.

On this episode, Gek and Linda chat about getting over the imposter syndrome and making the right decisions, not only at work, but for your own life quality. We hope you enjoy!

Gek Yeo: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Eurostar podcast studio. I’m Gek, the lead manager for QA and Release with AICPA SEMA. And I’m very happy to have Linda, the speaker of Eurostar Conference 2024 with me. Hello, Linda.

Linda Van De Vooren: Hi

Gek Yeo: will you like to quickly introduce yourself to our audience?

Linda Van De Vooren: Sure. I’m Linda van der Vooren. I’m from the Netherlands.

I work for a company called Bartosz. And, I’m a speaker this year.

Gek Yeo: What made you, want to become a speaker? Yes. To speak in front of such a big conference.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yes, it is. I’ve dreamt about being a speaker for many years. And when I switched jobs and in the whole interview, in the application, process, I mentioned that I had speaker, interests.

The manager that I interviewed with, who turned out also to be my manager in Bartosz, Jochem Polman, he said, don’t worry, I’ve got you. And I joined and then he said, why don’t you talk on Testnet, which is a Dutch testing conference. Ah, so that is your first one. Yes.

Gek Yeo: Ah, okay. So what was the topic then when you go for your first, as a speaker? What was the topic about?

Linda Van De Vooren: The topic was about the test manager and if we still have a role or duties in the agile environment.

Gek Yeo: Ah, that’s an interesting one. Oh, you really dare to challenge the views out there. Yeah. And how was, when you finally finished that, first speech, as a test For the conference, test next, right? What makes you want to keep going on to submit more, application to become a speaker?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah. It was a lot of fun to do. And I, vowed to first do something that was related to my fields directly. And then I had the feeling like speaking was so much fun. I wanted to do this again, but I also am going to, highlight, my story and challenges that I have faced, which is actually, that thought was the start of the talk that I did. Uh, well, just two hours ago.

Linda Van De Vooren: Okay. So can you tell our audience more about that talk then? Yeah. Yeah.

Gek Yeo: Yeah.

Linda Van De Vooren: I spoke about, uh, the imposter syndrome and, how I am an actual imposter.

I have proof that I shouldn’t be able to do what I do. But I still do it. Okay. Yeah, so, um, I highlight the fact that I did not, graduate from high school.

Gek Yeo:  Okay.

Linda Van De Vooren:

While I work with, master in science, PhDs, all the big diplomas and abbreviations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I work with people that have many of those and I just have middle school.

Gek Yeo: Okay.

Linda Van De Vooren: But I still do very well. Yeah. At my job. I think that’s because it can’t be, um, it’s not just education alone. It’s also with the personality, the skills that you have, those are gone beyond, you know there’s a piece of paper. And so what makes you think that, someone will be good in testing them?

Gek Yeo: Yeah. , because you switch, right?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I’ve also trained a lot of testers and what usually stands out with the testers that I’ve trained that I see really grow and excel in their field are people that are analytically strong and very creative. Because, being able to adapt your mindset and to shift where you are and to create context, different contexts in how you look at testing.

Gek Yeo: That’s something you can do very early in your career. And the people that are really good at that are usually really good testers. And we can not only just doing testing in software, we can test other things, I mean, non software basis too. So, how do you encourage someone who want to, start off, slowly, , into testing then?

If, let’s say, someone who just, being an accountant, suddenly they want to become a tester. Yeah. How would you encourage the person then?

Linda Van De Vooren: What I usually try to do is, Make the basis of testing a bit smaller so that they can grasp the concept. And what I, explain junior testers is you basically try to do two things and one of them you will succeed at.

You will show that it works and find evidence that it actually works. Or you will find evidence that it does not work. That’s what you have to do.

Gek Yeo: Okay.

Linda Van De Vooren: And you need to extend the toolbox with tools that show if it works or if it doesn’t work.

Gek Yeo: Yeah. And what happened if let’s say someone who is very shy and not very confident and how will you train them?

How, how will you start the ball rolling then?

Linda Van De Vooren: What I usually do with people that are unsure of their skills, which happens with most people when you’re just learning in a new career. Is, I give a lot of feedback and it’s not just positive feedback, but honest feedback.

I tell them what I see working really well and what they need to work on. And I also, , I don’t leave it at that. I also build upon where they are working towards and what that will lead to. So I might tell someone that they have, creatively thought of very good test cases, but they missed this one boundary case that was important.

So, I would then challenge them to, extend their creative approach to also include some of the, for experienced testers, obvious markers like a boundary value. Okay.

Gek Yeo: So it is also, , because, You have such a rich experience in testing, ? Is there any special testing project that strike you in your mind that you would, like to share with people when you, when people ask you, oh, what do you do for a living?

You say, okay, this is what I do. And then you will share some funny story or interesting story, the things you cannot forget about.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, I usually make a little bit of a joke. The joke goes as follows. So what I like to tell my friends is they pay me to break computers. And what I like to tell my family, don’t give me your computer.

I’ll break it. And then the serious explanation comes that I’m, a quality coach with a broad view on, quality and how to prove it with an appetite for, yeah, technical. Politically heavy, failing projects. And the larger the better. I have a very healthy appetite for something difficult.

Gek Yeo: So any, milestones that you would like to share with our audience that you have?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yes. My previous project is something that I look back on with a lot of pride. It was for a large Dutch bank. We created a credit risk software, from a tribe and the tribe was about between 20 and 25 teams.

Teams. Oh, yes. Divided in, areas. And we did the whole skilled agile thing. And, this organization created, the new world of credit risk. Yeah. But then from the central point in that bank, all the internal bank divisions needed to. Connect with us, test with us, and then bring it live. And I’m very proud that after three and a half years, everyone is live and working.

And we managed and it was very difficult because, these credit risk regulations come from the European Central Bank. Yes. And they are quite strict. And they need to be. Yes, it. Yeah. And, , all the internal divisions from that bank all have their own convictions and goals. And it was sometimes challenging to let it meet.

And, we did have to restructure the project a couple of times where I had to follow with my test approach because First we were, planning to go live with everything, and then we separated it in two or three groups, and then we separated that again. So I had to adapt the test management.

Gek Yeo: Okay, so how was the test approach like then, at that time?

So you break it down into smaller iterations, and how do you execute your test approach then?

Linda Van De Vooren: Well, I was responsible for the end to end test. Which is very unpopular nowadays to do an end to end test, but because the applications were so important and the scope was so big, the extra risk mitigated the fact that we needed to do an end to end test.

So I started the end to end test and, spoiler alert, at the end I also finished it, like we quit doing the end to end  test. What I did was, introduce very clear scope for everyone. So I communicated to all the teams, I’m expecting you to do all your own unit testing, system testing, integration testing.

You need to have done everything yourself. And when you have done everything, tested with your neighbors, the whole thing, only then will we start end to end testing and we will only test on end to end risks. So the risk assessments I did were very difficult because they were. as a bank, they are used to thinking about risks and thinking about how to cover those, but they weren’t trained in end to end risks.

So a lot of the time they came with risks that I said, that’s a great risk for your own testing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That you really need to do. Yeah. With yourself. Yeah. With yourself. And that was the most difficult conversation I often had.

Gek Yeo: Yeah. To ask other people to take responsibility, which they never used to have the idea.

They need to own it. Yeah. You normally just push it right to the end. Yeah. To the tester teams. Right. You  responsibility, you are the gatekeeper. You know, you do everything. We just push it to you.

Gek Yeo: Wow. That, must make you very proud.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, very, very. And it wasn’t always easy. But, I’m so proud that we made it to the finish line and that we actually did that well, not just doing the work, but also creating, really nice friendships in the workplace. Like the people that I worked with, we bonded.

Gek Yeo: Yes.

Linda Van De Vooren: And we had many very positive experiences doing this.

Gek Yeo: Yeah,

Linda Van De Vooren: I think when you meet out, you probably will still talk about it,

Gek Yeo: yeah, when you see them, yeah, because that is the thing that link you with them.

And, given that, right, if there’s something, over the years in all your test project, is there something that you wish that you can go back in time to change it?

You know, we do make mistakes from time to time.

Yeah, there’s one, assignment I did.

Linda Van De Vooren: Where there was a big lesson that I learned afterwards that I should have had then it was my first assignment as a test manager and it was at a company that does social housing and they wanted to change their entire IT organization so not just What where their housing is but also all the documentation the bookkeeping they wanted to update everything, everything changes

Gek Yeo: Wow

Linda Van De Vooren: That is a huge.

That is huge. Yeah. And technically it wasn’t that difficult, but the program manager was, he was tough and his way of communicating his wishes didn’t meet my need for information. So we were often not communicating in a way that we understood each other, which made me feel like a huge failure.

Okay. And I, lumbered on and in the end, I did finalize the whole assignment, but really at cost of myself, but what I should have done, what I have learned later, is that when that happens, when this clearly does not align and is not going to align, I should have handed in my assignment. That would have been better for everyone.

That wasn’t my place. Ah, I see where you’re coming from. That’s what I learned later, .

Gek Yeo: Yeah. To be bold and tell myself and to actively say, this is not working for me. Yeah. And then say no, and then start off. Right. Yeah. Instead of thinking, okay, I’ll just, take it in, make a little changes, see how it goes.

Linda Van De Vooren:Eventually I’ll finish it. That is very good advice. Yeah. ’cause  it was my first time as a test manager. I really wanted to prove that I could do it. But, it would have been better if I would have said, Hey, this is not for me. I choose another project, right? But I didn’t later. I learned from that, looking back now I can smile , but it was very hurtful for my mental health.

I know. Yeah. And it’s, I was there for, I think, seven, eight months. Wow. Then it finalized. That’s a long time. Yes. Yeah. And I really shouldn’t have. Yeah.

Gek Yeo: That, that is very good, experience to share with our audience. I’m sure if anyone who start in that kind of similar situation, it is good to, say no and move on.

Yeah. There are always projects suitable for your personality, for your skillset and train on that. There are lots of things to test for sure.

Linda Van De Vooren: There’s always another project and. The thing I learned here is that during an interview I should ask who I’m going to work with. Because if I had met him before the interviews were finished, I would know from the start that it wasn’t going to work.

Okay, because of the culture, the personality. Yeah, personality did not match with mine. Like there’s nothing wrong with him and there’s nothing wrong with me, but we didn’t match.

Gek Yeo: So, what are the topics would you like to talk about? In your next interview.Speaker.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah. , well I really like, imposter syndrome is also a bit linked to mindset and I like how a mindset influences, your testing abilities because if you’re in the wrong mindset, you’re not going to be able to test as good as you want. should. If you don’t manage to either know that your mindset is off or if you don’t manage to change it.

If you think you’re a failure, you will probably fail. True.

Gek Yeo: So it’s the mind that you will succeed. Yeah. So you’re going to talk about that. That would be an interesting one. I would look forward to that

Linda Van De Vooren: one. I’m also working on a talk that, It’s a bit of a stand up comedy thing about test automation. About why I personally hate it and never want to do it again. But, also advocating that people do it. So, I’m writing jokes about test automation now and I’m gathering stories from people and it’s a lot of fun.

Gek Yeo: Okay, that is something that we need to look out for pretty soon where we follow Linda.

Linda Van De Vooren:  Yeah. And so another thing is, , how do you, talk about automation because it’s come up very often in testing conference, like in Eurostar, we talk about automation, talking about AI how do you engage with the. Committee then of testers so that you can get, the vibes and the feels of what people are up to and want to learn.

Gek Yeo:  Yeah. How do you engage with the committee then?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah. I like talking with testers a lot and I like hearing what their challenges are in their current assignment or jobs. And often that’s automation. And, what I find is that they’re often trying to get a triangle to fit into the round hole.

Gek Yeo: That’s just because they want to put on the automation bus.

Linda Van De Vooren: Or they use automation. That’s really good for. Let’s say, A. P. I. Testing. Yes. But if you’re going to unit test, that’s a whole different ballpark. So you could be really good at one thing. And then if you try that at the other thing, you will probably fail

Gek Yeo: yeah.

Linda Van De Vooren: And also if you maybe you want to start up with test automation, sometimes people start and then immediately think they have to be perfect and successful from the get go. You have to give yourself time to find out how the tools work, if the language works. You have to find out how to make a test and go another direction. And, expecting yourself to build a really good test set immediately without making errors is Yeah. It’s not going to work.

Gek Yeo: It’s not going to work, and also to set out the right expectations about automation. Sometimes people think that you can automate everything, but that is not, like you say, trying to fit a triangle into a circle, right?

Linda Van De Vooren: It’s not really. I have a colleague who disagrees with me. He’s more into an everything mindset than I’m very much. Same for me, I’m

Gek Yeo: not. There are things that maybe we can try, attempt 100%, but always go in and check what is, the return of investment, how much you can automate.

Linda Van De Vooren: Otherwise you fall into the trap that in pursuit of burning everything down, just so that you can Mythical end point when everything is automated.

Gek Yeo: And then your team get burnt out, the tools, you invest more money in it, and then everything, then you just realize, oh no, it’s a car crash. Yeah. Then you have to stop. Yeah.

Linda Van De Vooren: So that’s really interesting to me to find out which mindset they are in and if that’s the correct one, because usually if they’re struggling, it’s probably not the correct one.

Gek Yeo: Yeah. I think that, now the trend is talking about AI, now it’s not just AI. I don’t trust AI. I don’t trust AI. Yes, that’s, that’s quite an interesting one because I, I asked this question to many guest speakers. How do you build

Linda Van De Vooren: trust in a I? Yeah. So far, I’ve been trying to build trust.

And, what I’ve proven is that you cannot trust it. The way Gen AI hallucinates results is worrying, and I think you can use it for simple tasks, but you have to always check everything. Because if you check five times and then think, Oh, it can do it, then it will start hallucinating other results. And, I think that’s detrimental for what we are trying to do with AI.

Yeah, we should really look how it can actually help us and not, think of all those castles in the sky that are just never going to be there.

Gek Yeo: Yeah, true. Yeah, not with the

Linda Van De Vooren: current technology, at least.

Gek Yeo: Yeah, at least I feel like, it’s good to have the option. We look at it. And, everybody, we can try it, we can play with it, it’s a tool there. But, we need to have everybody in the team to be on board with the bus, to have AI.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, and to have the right knowledge.

Gek Yeo: Yes. How to use it. Yeah, because, , Last thing you want is like leaving people behind and then you are on the bus yourself to AI automation. That would be quite horrible.

Yeah. So, in this Eurostar conference, are there any talk that you listen to or do you like any other talk that, impress you when you are in the conference?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, I really liked the keynote from Abigail. Yes, I was in that one too. Yeah. She’s an amazing person and she did so well and her talk really hit home with me. The way she builds up her test practice and uses a scientific method. Yeah. And that’s wonderful.

Gek Yeo: I like when she said, automation does amplify test and bring back, technology, but. Look at the human factor, right? If you have a good tester, yeah, automation, for sure, if you have a bad tester, even you have a good automation, but you still get very bad testing.

Linda Van De Vooren: Yes. So that really resonated with me. And I was just at, I’m going to quickly look at what the name is, because I want to get his name right. I really enjoyed his talk. He was so funny as well. Ah. , look after your logs and get AI to help by, Jihad Ghandour. His talk was really funny and really structured well and, how AI could help him look at his logs and how it did not help him look at his logs. What I really liked is that he was critical about what it cannot do and what you need to help it do. His talk was so funny all throughout. That was wonderful.

Gek Yeo: So he inspired you for your stand up comedy then, yeah? Yeah, for sure. He’s going through all the jokes and things like that. So besides testing, right, Linda, what do you like to do for your pastime then? I play saxophone. Ooh, a musical instrument. I should have got you signed for yesterday, bingo. So do you play like in a band or just casually? Yeah, I play in

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, I play in two orchestras, amateur orchestras. Oh, amazing. Yeah, they’re symphonic wind bands. And Yeah, it’s amazing to play in an orchestra. It’s to me the ultimate team sport. Because you’re working on one goal with often more than 50 people all trying to do your best to build up the magic and the music on the stage.

Gek Yeo: Wow, it’s just like how you build up the magic and things like that in your tribe and your testing project. It’s related, yes. Yes, I guess so. Now we can know the common traits for a good orchestra. You know, a test manager. You still have the curiosity, the passion to do something and enjoy, teamwork. Yeah. Thank you so much. Is there anything you would like to add on to our audience before we close this talk?

Linda Van De Vooren: Yeah, maybe, takeaways from my imposter talk that I just did.

Gek Yeo: Yeah, yeah.

Linda Van De Vooren: That’s the one that,, it’s currently resonating with me because when you step onto a stage, you might not feel as sure as you do. And one of the takeaways is, not everyone sees all your flaws, but you do. So your own behavior and your own person, your own, abilities are always beneath the looking glass for yourself because you’re always there, but not everyone sees that. And what you see as flaws in yourself all day, other people don’t even see.

Gek Yeo: So your message is to the audience, be kind to yourself. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure to speak to you, Linda. Thank you. And I hope to see you next year as a speaker too.

All right. Thank you. Bye.